Talking Snapdragon, Microsoft, Nuvia, and Discrete Graphics

Two driving forces are driving the present know-how market: insatiable demand for {hardware}, and the provision chain shortages making it tough to provide sufficient in amount to fulfil each order. Even with these two forces in motion, firms should push and develop subsequent era applied sciences, as no competitor needs to take a seat on their laurels. That features Qualcomm, and as a part of the Tech Summit in late 2021, I sat down with Alex Katouzian, Qualcomm’s GM of Cell, Compute, and Infrastructure to speak in regards to the points confronted in 2021, the outlook for 2022, the place the relationships lie, and the place innovation is headed in terms of smartphone and PC.

We’ve interviewed Alex a few occasions right here at AnandTech, and whereas he has been effectively educated in coping with the likes of our pointed questions, we are able to inform he’s being open and sincere, telling us as a lot as he can (and typically somewhat bit additional). Alex has been at Qualcomm for 20 years, working his approach up by way of wi-fi cellular applied sciences, product administration, and taking up the MCI enterprise unit in 2017. Previous to that Alex was engineering multimedia and wi-fi chipsets, showcasing that his entire profession has been about placing next-generation connectivity into as many devices as potential.

Alex Katouzian SVP and GM Cell

Ian Cutress AnandTech

Ian Cutress: Right here at Qualcomm’s Tech Summit, you might be asserting the brand new Snapdragon 8 Gen 1, with new advertising, and it’s a brand new chip on Arm v9. I form of need to step again and take a look at the yr as an entire – Qualcomm launched the Snapdragon 888, and that is been in a number of flagships, accompanied by a number of them with Qualcomm 5G RF options. I do know you are an worker, and I do know you are in all probability biased, however objectively what grade would you give Qualcomm for the yr?

Alex Katouzian: Effectively our Snapdragon 888 is prime in premium tier options. Whenever you take a look at the capabilities that have been obtainable to our prospects and ecosystem by way of the applied sciences we supplied, we topped the chart by way of graphics functionality, general efficiency, AI functionality, and digicam efficiency – there are a number of telephones on the 888 which are topping out on DXOmark. I’d say our Elite Gaming functionality was excellent, we’ve achieved that in cooperation with the builders and sport engine builders. All of them have been very cottoned on. So general, I’d say a fairly excessive grade on the general efficiency of a premium tier telephone.

IC: Would you say you’ve got had any pinch factors this yr, that get solved subsequent yr?

AK: Clearly the pandemic introduced on some provide chain points, and the severity of them fluctuated all through from the tip of 2020 by way of into 2021. However by being a fabless firm, it allowed us the liberty to have the ability to transfer from fab to fab, not solely on the most recent digital components of know-how, but in addition on the outdated analog know-how we have had the power to maneuver from fab to fab as effectively. We alleviated a number of the provision points based mostly on the power to have engineering assets obtainable to maneuver components and make room for shipments to occur. Although we nonetheless went by way of some provide crunches, and we in all probability will undergo some provide crunches in 2022, we alleviated a number of that, and we’re capable of get out our merchandise.

IC: Does shifting from fab to fab like that disrupt the distinctive relationships with every foundry?

AK: The connection between a fabless semiconductor firm like us and the foundry needs to be very tight. However these have been unprecedented occasions, and the ripple results have been nice as a result of the provision chain often takes about 18 months to 2 years to return to fruition. Once we had that shutdown interval of say, 9-10 months, each facility within the provide chain was shutting down. They needed to restart that, to recalibrate tools, to rent employees, and any growth plans have been on maintain. Then the surge in demand for client digital tools was so excessive that it takes time for it to catch up. Given these ‘unprecedented occasions’, I do not suppose {that a} foundry goes guilty an organization like us to attempt to diversify in such a approach that it permits us to ship merchandise. In case you look additional down the provision chain, we’re suppliers to our prospects, they usually’re gonna should diversify of their provide as effectively, and somebody needed to make that alternative. 

IC: Aha, so goes each methods, each up your chain and down it.

AK: Precisely!

IC: So once I got here to my first Qualcomm Tech Summit, the venue had specialist tools put in for 5G as a result of we have been nonetheless very early, very nascent in 5G. The rollout on the time was extra targeted on industrial functions, however a very good quantity of the speak was on mmWave versus Sub-6. The place the US is specializing in mmWave, the remainder of the world was targeted on Sub-6. If feels form of odd, however we’re form of nonetheless having these discussions! What has modified from Qualcomm’s perspective in these discussions?

AK: I feel increasingly more, the carriers are realizing that ‘a layered cake impact’ of their community, spreading out, turns into a extra vital factor to do in crowded environments or congested areas. mmWave roll-out, though typically it somewhat bit tougher as a result of the quantity of base station towers, you must have much more of them, though they’re somewhat bit tougher, carriers are realizing that it truly is significantly better to have mmWave in congested areas. Then, as you go additional out to extra suburban areas, that Sub-6 can cowl and much more, perhaps presumably even falling again to LTE.

However that realization, and the deployment of the tools – bear in mind, we’re on the finish of the second yr of the industrial launch of 5G, and for each G, the transition takes between 10 to 12 years. So the rollout of mmWave goes to begin to occur extra. I feel extra nations are going to begin to deploy: we now have deployment in Japan; Korea is slowly beginning to come up; China’s beginning to consider the very fact there’s plenty of bandwidth obtainable there for them. Then the sectors that mmWave can get utilized to are a lot wider than what we had earlier than, in several sectors of say economic system, manufacturing, retail – after which you have got different technique of deploying mmWave to personal networks by way of small cell. These are all serving to. I feel while you take a look at industrial, while you take a look at manufacturing, while you take a look at automotive, there’s a number of room to develop for mmWave, and that growth goes to be from the ecosystem.

IC: For this occasion, we’re studying rather a lot about Snapdragon 8 Gen 1. As you’ve got stated, and because the numbers present, you guys are a premium smartphone chief, persevering with from the earlier era. In my thoughts, I am juggling up the truth that as a premium chief, you need to keep the market share, however you additionally want all the things to work to take care of unit gross sales. So on some degree, you have got play it protected to be sure you have that product working accurately – however on different ranges, you must take dangers with new options, and subsequent era applied sciences which will or might not work long run. Examine that to all of your opponents which are making an attempt to catch up, and may take these dangers. How precisely do you steadiness that? Is there a proper option to discuss how that’s balanced?

AK: I feel the way in which to take a look at it’s that the technique at Qualcomm has been to take the danger on the know-how on the biggest channel that you’ve got, after which re-use that know-how in merchandise in development sectors which are adjoining to our largest channel. So cellular is clearly the biggest phase we now have at Qualcomm – so you will note the danger taking in advancing know-how in mobiles first, though while you’re taking a look at a cellular first surroundings, energy dissipation ought to be prime of thoughts. Nevertheless, for instance I need to apply AI functionality to cellular, energy is the primary standards. Then I can work out my efficiency to energy ratio, and I can scale from there. But when I need to take a look at automotive, and I need to do autonomous driving, efficiency is the primary standards, energy is the second standards, perhaps even the third. Nevertheless, we now have the power to scale with our know-how roadmap, so once we take the possibility and the danger of placing sure applied sciences in cellular, we begin to consider what the functions are so we take that threat, we put it in, and see if we are able to develop that market. Then we are able to work out the way to scale the bottom design right into a market that wants efficiency first, and energy second. In order that’s how we take a look at it throughout the board.

It is the identical actual utility on CPU – in the event you bear in mind, a couple of years in the past, we had our architectural license with Arm. We introduced in on our personal CPU, and we took benefit of that, and we form of tried to develop the market. At the moment, we did not have adjoining companies that we have been actually rising – we have been serious about them, however we weren’t rising them, however the utility is precisely the identical. Now with Nuvia approaching board, we’ll do the identical factor you already know – a ‘one know-how roadmap’ that may scale. We are going to first have that first occasion of that in a PC chip sampling subsequent yr, attending to merchandise in 2023. Then we’re going to consider the way to convey it into cellular, automotive, after which infrastructure utility as effectively. So we’ve already thought of the way to do the facility efficiency scaling for various companies we’re going after. Similar with graphics, identical with digicam capabilities, identical with video capabilities. Every of those applied sciences take the danger of it being launched in cellular first, scale it, take into consideration different markets that we go to after which we regulate our efficiency and energy factors.

IC: It is nice that you just stated video capabilities, and talking in regards to the digicam, as a result of one of many factors that got here out of the displays and a few of our briefings is that Qualcomm is pushing 8K HDR, and extra superior 4K HDR recording. However the silicon does not have an AV1 decode unit, and a few individuals have stated that it’s since you guys aren’t a part of the AV1 Alliance. Are you able to shed some extra gentle on the choices there?

AK: So once we plan our applied sciences out, typically on gadgets such because the premium tier, we now have to consider issues two or three years upfront. The timeframe that we have to introduce these gadgets could be very crucial based mostly on the OEM launches, and the wants of the carriers. Given these circumstances, we have not been capable of accommodate AV1. We’ll in all probability accommodate sooner or later, however up till now, we simply have not been capable of do it. It’s not that we do not need to do it – we simply have not had the power to plan it in in time to attempt to make that occur.

IC: However you’ve received individuals engaged on it?

AK: Oh, sure – we now have a number of video specialists. I imply, we contribute to requirements on video consistently. We’re concerned with the place it is heading. We simply suppose that in time, we’ll have these capabilities – there is not any doubt. We simply did not have the chance to get it in time schedule-wise, planning it in such a approach that it’s going to hit our timeline.

IC: Relating to relationships – Qualcomm and Microsoft. The Home windows on Snapdragon ecosystem is an extended partnership, and we’re now seeing 64-bit emulation coming with Home windows 11, enabled with last-gen gadgets and future gadgets. How’s that relationship progressing? You’ve had Microsoft on stage at this occasion!

AK: Extraordinarily effectively. Our partnership with Microsoft has all the time been stable, by way of a cloud-and-software firm cooperating with a technology-and-hardware firm, to offer an answer that is sensible for the shoppers. They’re utilizing all these buttons, throughout telephones, throughout PC, and we’re collaborating throughout IoT, even taking a look at AI capabilities, not simply in telephones but in addition in PCs, and presumably in data-center collaboration as effectively. Nevertheless, our relationship on the PC aspect has been turning into increasingly more refined as they be taught the capabilities and applied sciences that we now have. They’re additionally taking the danger of exploring how multimedia functionality can turn into increasingly more prevalent on the PC. As you already know, I feel you agree that cellular traits are coming to the PC and the conclusion that being able to be cellular and related and having nice multimedia, together with digicam, together with audio, bettering AI, all of that’s turning into increasingly more vital, together with efficiency functionality of the CPU and GPU – a mix of which might turn into very effectively suited to a cellular workforce.

However let me offer you somewhat little bit of a historical past. Each enterprise Qualcomm has gotten into that has had incumbents. We have had three components that we have put in to fulfill KPIs (Key Efficiency Indicators). One is having a disruptive know-how that may make a distinction, two is a long-term funding, and three is a go to market companion. I can go way back to UMTS – we invested in UMTS for seven years earlier than it turned extra mainstream and to develop. Now, clearly, we had a disruptive method which was a extremely built-in resolution with a protocol stack that was worldwide examined, and we may make extra OEMs horizontal versus vertical. So we had that disruption, we put in these seven years of funding, and our go-to-market companions have been the horizontal OEMs that exist at this time. We did the identical factor for Wi-Fi, and we did the identical factor for RF entrance finish.

Once we are entering into the PC market, we’re doing the identical factor. We’ve disruption, we now have long-term funding, and we have been doing this for about 5 years now. We simply invested in Nuvia, not only for the aim of the PC, however a chunk of it’s for the PC, and we now have our go-to-market companion in Microsoft for Home windows, and we’re working with Google Chrome based mostly gadgets as effectively. So these three components are met, and we’ll proceed bettering our gadgets and capabilities. This additionally means working with Microsoft end-to-end, to take advantage of the entire underlying applied sciences to their OS to be optimized to run on Snapdragon gadgets, after which drivers to show all of the applied sciences to customers.

IC: If I may get some readability on the connection between Qualcomm and Microsoft. There have been public discussions concerning what you name Home windows on Snapdragon (named due to the connection, though lots of people wish to name it Home windows on Arm). There have been studies saying that, between Microsoft and Qualcomm, there’s been an unique settlement for these Home windows on Arm/Home windows on Snapdragon collaboration exclusivity is slowly coming to an finish. Is there something you possibly can touch upon that?

AK: I actually cannot touch upon that, however as I stated, the cooperation between us has by no means been this sturdy, and I feel for the foreseeable future we’ll work with them extra to extend the capabilities of Arm and/or Snapdragon based mostly options.

IC: So that you talked about Nuvia a few occasions, a subject very expensive to my coronary heart. I’ve met with Gerard, Manu, and John pre-acquisition, and I used to be actually wanting ahead to their server chip they have been going to provide. So I have to admit somewhat little bit of me died while you guys acquired them, however I have to applaud that it was a intelligent transfer in buying them. Given what Qualcomm CEO Cristiano Amon was saying on the time, saying about ACPC since its inception, it truly is the course it must go in. I do know Nuvia is extra the subject for subsequent yr’s summit, as you’ve got stated sampling in 2022, product in 2023. How is that acquisition going, and the way is the group integrating?

AK: Extraordinarily effectively, extraordinarily effectively. The founders are very energetic, and I can personally say I in all probability meet with them on a weekly foundation, as much as two or thrice per week. My colleagues which are operating the PC enterprise inside my enterprise unit meet with them each day. We evaluate roadmaps on a regular basis, we evaluate methods, we’re very cooperative on the way to go to market, not simply within the close to future, however in the long term as effectively. The system structure, the chipset structure, are all being mentioned repeatedly – partitioning is being mentioned repeatedly, so it is a very tight integration of this group, and that is precisely the way it additionally occurred prior to now. For instance, we purchased two Wi-Fi firms, one is Atheros. We combine these groups in throughout the Qualcomm group and form of make them one Qualcomm, after which we proceed that approach. That is precisely what’s taking place with the Nuvia group as effectively. And I’d say, on the server aspect, that these are opportunistic companies that we’ll go after. So we’ll see what occurs.

IC: Will the Nuvia core be known as a Kryo core, or will you have got any fancy advertising identify for it?

AK: I have never thought of it but – it positively will not, or in all probability gained’t, be Kryo. However we have not thought of it but.

IC: Give me a name while you want a reputation!

AK: Hah, positive!

IC: In case you can maybe clear one thing up for me: is the Nuvia group making a single core, or each an enormous core or somewhat core? Or is it that they’re dealing totally with the SoC construction into which you add within the connectivity and the graphics?

AK: It’s each, all of the above. By that I imply that it is not possible for us to place out a chipset resolution as refined as this with out having all the system being considered. Consider it this fashion: the CPU by itself is a part of the ‘one know-how roadmap’, however so is graphics, and different issues. Then we’re actually serious about bringing an entire system resolution to the PC and altering it in such a approach that you do not go after the standard designs. , we talked about this earlier than, we’re searching for invoice of fabric financial savings, we’re taking a look at design financial savings, we’re taking a look at inner routing, we’re taking a look at shell designs, and we’re taking a look at thermals – the entire thing. So it needs to be an entire resolution. So that they’re positively concerned in the entire SoC design, they usually’re concerned in taking a look at a number of totally different cores, the place it is sensible. Whether or not it is massive cores, little cores, or a mix of what number of.

IC: Nuvia’s design shall be Arm-based, and the Nuvia group comes from individuals who constructed Apple’s M1 and expertise from Google. So will that chip compete primarily in opposition to Apple as a result of it is ARM-based, or in opposition to Intel as a result of it is Home windows-based?

AK: The gadgets that we’ll come out with based mostly on the brand new CPU design and the brand new structure, will compete head on with Apple. 

IC: So while you do your comparability charts, you may be evaluating in opposition to Apple?

AK: Sure.

IC: Is that as a result of Intel is not within the image? Or is that simply because that’s the place the market is?

AK: The way in which we take a look at it’s that we’re not going after discrete designs: we’re going after an SoC and the structure that makes one of the best sense for the PC. Like I stated, cellular traits are coming into the PC, and I agree with you that efficiency clever in comparison with cellular it’s a lot greater, it has extra energy dissipation functionality, however we’ll attempt to make it rather a lot sleeker and have much more cellular based mostly. So our comparability is to an organization that may do each forms of SoC and convey that functionality to the PC, so we’re actually getting ready ourselves for that.

IC: Qualcomm has a really environment friendly graphics structure in Adreno. It often performs rather well within the cellular SoCs, however we’re presently at a time the place the discrete GPU market goes bananas, and all the things is promoting. I’d like to see a scaled Adreno GPU, and provided that Intel can also be popping out with its personal, Qualcomm might be a tremendous fourth competitor in that house. We might like to get your feedback on that, however the important thing factor is: in the event you have been to do this, what colour would it not be? AMD is pink, Intel is blue, NVIDIA is inexperienced, and so is an Adreno discrete GPU going to be gold?

AK: It is arduous to say as a result of we do not even have that product! However in the event you suppose alongside the strains of premium, yeah, you already know, it will be some shade of gold. However consider it this fashion: we now have to enter the PC market with a really refined design that we have already labored on SoC-wise until now, however we’ll get a lift in terms of CPU functionality. We are able to scale our GPU functionality similar to we mentioned earlier than, and we now have the power to scale throughout these gadgets. So we positively could have far more performing GPU and CPU cores. Clearly additionally concentrating on energy dissipation, and people ratios have gotten to be proper, so if we decide a design level throughout the PC, we’ll positively want these necessities. Then we are able to break off at discrete GPU if the enterprise is sensible for it, however we positively have the aptitude to scale to that degree and the design functionality to provide one thing in that market. Plus, the arduous play is about having far more of an ecosystem. So as soon as we get into the market extra closely, and get extra video games developed on there for instance, and different functions, then, the likelihood all the time existed.

IC: To me, it’s a no brainer! Wonderful, thanks a lot Alex on your time.

AK: Thanks Ian!

We’ve an upcoming interview with Qualcomm’s Miguel Nunes, Senior Director of ACPC, about the way forward for that line of merchandise. Say tuned!